Editing at 30fps bother you?

[MovieStuff]

Hi, Lionel!

Well, Mattia's observations are valid from a technical point of view and, perhaps, are also valid to some on an asthetic point of view. I certainly don't dismiss them (but I'm also not going to rebuild my system!)

However, I know for a fact that the main reason that the Ranks employed the split field combination on the 5th frame (for NTSC) was less about it "looking better" and more about offering something that had been effectively duplicated by some very inexpensive telecine projector film chain units from that initial time period. I have seen some beautiful transfers done on 16mm and 35mm film chains where they were able to emmulate the doubling of the fourth frame; something that was supposedly only possible with a Rank up till that time. So, as the story goes, the Rank people had to "up the ante" a bit by claiming a "smoother picture" with the split field combinations on the 5th frame.

Now, the REAL question is: Is it really smoother or just technically different? That totally depends on a variety of factors. If the footage was shot with a narrow shutter opening, then it might stobe less with a split field combination than on a doubled frame. However, and this is the important point, it is going to strobe to some degree in EITHER case because that is the nature of narrow shutter footage on a pulldown transfer. Again, based on my experience, footage shot with a standard shutter opening with every fourth frame doubled looks okay-fine to me. For super 8 footage shot with an XL shutter, I don't even think a trained eye could tell the difference since the interlacing tends to blend the frames a bit, anyway.

Like I say, I feel it's more of subjective thing. Many people feel any kind of a pulldown is a cheat and that the split field combination is merely smoke and mirrors added to a flawed technique. Personally, I like clarity and discretion that the pulldown provides compared to a 5 bladed shutter. But, that's a whole different debate than the discussion I'm trying to promote here regarding editing at 30fps!

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[Supa-eight]

Regarding video back to film, I would be more interested if some kind of method could be created that used our actual camera original footage in sync with our recorded dialouge/sound mix in the final result. Could an edge print be made on the Super 8 original that would work in reference with our video copy (timecode), so we could then edit in sync (with speed adjustments) and just transfer the final soundtrack back to the sound striped edited original? I'm sure theres a lot of speed and splicing issues but the original print of Super8 is where the beauty of the format is.

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[StopMoWorks]

Thanks Roger!

I appreciate the elaboration and clarification. Things on my agenda is to experiment with with post 'puter editing & digital enhancements of my stop motion animation tests shot with Super8. As you know, this is one frame at a time and for me, it is important that each frame is clear (no double images)so that afterwards when 24fps shot animation is transferred & downloaded to computer, I can create sharp composites (if i shoot blue, green, or whatever color keying method)or do frame by frame digital work in Photoshop. Whatever you decide amongst yourselves about transfer speed, I would like to edit and do my post effects work at the real speed i originally shot/animated. If you just transferred at a straight 30fps, and it's running faster, can I adjust the speed back to what I originally shot with my editing program (I have Premiere) and still have clear/discreet frames?

It would be cool if you just offered both options.....with pulldown and without pulldown.
Lionel

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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StopMoWorks:

It would be cool if you just offered both options.....with pulldown and without pulldown.
Lionel
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I do. I can transfer any footage for playback at 30fps by simply not doubling any frames. In other words, I'll just transfer each frame of super 8 to a frame of video and that's all. Then you can change the speed however you wish either by simply applying the appropriate speed reduction and/or using AfterEffects like Mattias was suggesting to instill the split field combination on the 5th frame.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[StopMoWorks]

I know this is just kind of like a survey, but are you still going to offer the 3:2 pulldown? Isn't that how pro transfers are done (like Rank)? Or, do we do the 3:2 pulldown in our editing program (by changing speed)?

Again, I am a little naive here, but I am just thinking the most user friendly way for us to work with film shot 24fps and doing all the post work in 'puter/editing program.

I know, it's simple to you but just trying to understand all this, as you are introducing another element here with regards to your transfer service. It looks like you might be offering an additional transfer service feature for those who want to go back to film?

Lionel

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[This message has been edited by StopMoWorks (edited February 25, 2002).]

[Matt Pacini]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mattias:
> I've seen it both ways and the only time it is mildly noticable is when action moves really, really fast.

which is quite often, i'd say. somebody lifting their hands or turning their heads too quickly is enough. why don't you just use proper pulldown? there are several free utilities that can do it, and i'm pretty sure you even have after effects.

/matt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


mattias, is this a third party plugin for AfterFX, or is this a standard feature?
I use AfterFX, but I don't see that function.
What plugin is it, and if it doesn't come with the program, where can I get it?
(Am I blind and it's been there all the time?)

Roger, I don't know how to answer your 30fps question.
I'm going to shoot for video certainly, and for eventual film output maybe.

I would assume that everyone who is going to get the transfer would have Premier or FCpro, so they could do their pulldown themselves.
I mean, I assumed that's what you'd be doing anyway, now that I'm thinking of it, and that's certainly what I'll do with my workprinter.
I think the big problem for everyone is, they want sound and picture to be at the right speed, for anything they do.

I heard there was a plugin that allowed you to edit completely at 24fps (a Premier plugin, I thought, but maybe it was AfterFX).
No "speeding up" or whatever.
I would guess that would mean the software would have to render a 3:2 pulldown on the fly, while retaining the 24fps in the actual files.
Mattias, why don't you write a Premier plugin that will do this?
I'll buy one!
How do Avid's work, when editing for film?
I can't imaging they are all editing while having their footage playing back faster than normal.
It would affect your editing decisions.


Matt Pacini

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[mattias]

> mattias, is this a third party plugin for AfterFX, or is this a standard feature?

it's a standard feature. look under render settings. there's also a third party plugin called reelsmart fields kit that has more options. and of course the one i'm working on for fcp. ;-)

/matt

[mattias]

> How do Avid's work, when editing for film?

avid film composers use 24 fps, either by automatic pulldown removal, or slowing down of 30 fps flat footage. the other avids use normal 29.97 fps video and normal drop frame tc, and then some math to get the frame numbers for the cut list.

there's a program called film logic that does this with any edl from any system as well. so, there's no avid magic involved, but it's actually quite complicated: with pulldown and video tc, a cut can be placed on a frame that doesn't exist on film, and the system has to decide on one of the closest ones, and still keep the timing right for sound sync purposes.

and with pal? we just use any system at 25 fps, and then translate the time code to edge code with a pocket calculator, or just read the window burn. :-)

/matt

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mattias:

and with pal? we just use any system at 25 fps, and then translate the time code to edge code with a pocket calculator, or just read the window burn. :-)
/matt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lucky bastards.....

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[eightmmovies]

One thing I have learned off digital video is that NTSC is at 29.97 fps, I always assumed it was 24fps ie 40% of the 60Hz mains frequency and PAL used 25fps because it is 50%of 50Hz frequency. So I offer the following. Why not use 25fps, edit etc. in PAL sizes, and then convert electronically to NTSC letting the electronics worry about the frames etc?
Out of interest, what frequencies are used for HDTV and the proposed cinema digital projection formats?

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